Tulips, Myths, and Cryptocurrencies, Hacker News

Tulips, Myths, and Cryptocurrencies, Hacker News

Much like the internet did then, crytpo-currencies now draw an assortment of technologists, anarchists, bankers and futurists. There’s also a insanely optimistic bull case to be made and it’s very difficult to determine a reasonable valuation.

Ter tegenstelling, tulips weren’t a fresh technology, they had no power to switch the world’s business or social graph and a radically fresh implements couldn’t be build on top of them.

Depends on your definition of ‘technology’. From wikipedia:

&gt, The tulip wasgoed different from every other flower known to Europe at that time, with a saturated intense petal color that no other plant had. The appearance of the nonpareil tulip spil a status symbol at this time coincides with the rise of freshly independent Nederland’s trade fortunes.

Ter any case, they were certainly fresh, and there wasgoed reason to believe that lots of people would want to buy them.

2nd Life wasgoed an attempt to do a total simulation of life online, a clumsy transfer of what it is to be alive directly from reality to internet, spil it turns out, the technology of the internet is good at a lotsbestemming of the joy parts of 2nd Life (talking to friends, meeting fresh people) but those can be performed by fresh systems, unburdened from attempting to be a simulation of something else (messageboards, forums, and so on to Facebook/tumblr/twitter etc). The other parts (from raising posible pet rabbits to the entire concept of walking from place to place) were just sort of fluff, and so the practice faded not because it wasgoed a bad idea, but because it could be done better merienda it stopped caring about the simulated fluff.

Cryptocurrencies may not be that useful, but there’s a possibility that they prefigure something larger, they’re still mimicking a pre-existing monster of currency, economy, and exchange that can itself be disrupted. If wij analogize cryptocurrencies to 2nd Life, it means they’ll fade because their functions will be substituted by a entirely fresh way of interacting/treating value, and the blockchain can still be an significant technology for that. (For the record, I think it’s too soon to tell, and am not that optimistic about any current blockchain ventures.)

If you think cryptocurrencies have no utility at this point, you have your head ter the sand. To use money electronically right now, you need a handelsbank, you can’t do it yourself.

Another alternative would be to trade goods or altcoins for fractional BTC.

So not quiebro money, but not fairly individual artworks/collectibles either, maybe more like prints with limited runs? (Ter a similar way, woodblocks wear out so scarcity for a particular print series is enforced.)

On top of that, you get tulip traders, who seek to buy tulips from people who value them less and sell them to people who value them more, and speculators who acquire and hold tulips on an expectation that they will be worth more ter the future. From there the market can explode and the price can rise far beyond whatever the primary users of tulips are willing to pay.

The weird thing about Bitcoins is there is no floor to their value – their value spil a unit of exchange or a store of value depends entirely on how many people are willing to accept them. A Bitcoin is not a tulip that some people want to simply admire or a corporation that has revenue or a parcel of land which has potential. With all those things, you might just want the thing for the thing. With Bitcoin, you only everzwijn want it, either spil a store of value or a medium of exchange, because other people also want it.

This is where everything becomes weird. With other markets, tulip or stock or vivo estate, you can speak of the commodity spil being over-valued when speculation drives the price above what the people who want the thing itself are willing to pay. With Bitcoin, you cannot. You can’t call Bitcoin overpriced or underpriced because it has no grounding, no price that is independent of request.

(Tulips are obviously not an efficient food source, don’t expect to see people eating tulips except te unplanned-for emergencies.)

Utility/value is relative – maybe a tulip is worth something to you, but it’s not worth anything to mij.

I do agree with OP that certain things might not be usefull even rough they presently hold commercial value, I just think Bitcoin is usefull. And I also believe that BTC is usefull te an infectious way.

Regardless, I fell like you’re begging the kwestie. Not all value is relative, some thing are more practically valuable than others and sone, if you look at them objectively, are almost worthless.

I’m not understanding this argument. How can value be dependent on the setting and intrinsic at the same time?

If peanut allergy spread to the entire population, would peanuts still have intrinsic value?

This is a facile line of argument. There are reasonable assumptions wij can make about how stable a particular setting is.

Can you enumerate thesis &quot,reasonable assumptions&quot,? The idea sounds pretty dubious to mij.

And yes, I would say that if the zon exploded, killing all Earth life, nothing would have value, at least not from a human’s perspective. This doesn’t seem to help the case for intrinsic value.

However, the edge cases aren’t imaginary, and they give us a chance to refine our ideas.

Say there is a hefty harvest and a town now has much more food than it can eat. A food merchant passes through the town and wants to sell some of his goods, however obviously no one is interested. Has the merchant’s food lost its intrinsic value? Why doesn’t anyone want it?

Wij can also consider the vastly different food preferences found all overheen the world. And so on.

Being a bit pedantic, food isn’t truly a specific thing, it’s an amorphous category. It’s literally defined spil &quot,anything people eat that provides nutrition&quot,, so it almost feels tautological to say that food has intrinsic value.

Ultimately, almost any other concrete, specific example I can think is much less universal than &quot,food&quot,.

Ter each case, the face value is identical but one of the units has an extra possible area of value, extrinsic to the marked face value. You can melt down the silver coin, eat the potato, plant the tulip. This puts a floor on the value of the voorwerp – it’s worth zoogmoeder(facevalue, extrinsicvalue). Something worth minus(facevalue,extrinsicvalue) should be worth more than something worth minus(facevalue, 0).

Bitcoin doesn’t seem to be something that can be planted, eaten, etc. It doesn’t have another area of value, other than being bitcoin.

Until the staatsbestel gets the private keys, which isn’t unlikely. Spil soon spil cryptocurrencies are widely adopted, regimes will learn about them and not only take the contant but also search for the keys.

When circumventing government, there’s also always the question of &quot,how likely is it I will be caught?&quot, and &quot,what happens if I do?&quot,. If the penalty is &quot,you get slok te the back of the head&quot, or even just &quot,you spend a year or two te a comfy minimum-security prison&quot, and the probability is &quot,non-zero&quot,, most rational people aren’t going to assign a high enough value to &quot,not having some money confiscated&quot, to choose circumvention.

Customs can lightly catch you smuggling contant, gold and potatoes, but they have no idea you are leaving to metselspecie out your bitcoin te another country.

What is your argument against the inherent utility of possessing Bitcoins?

All of thesis are ter the early development (even concept) stages but investors are witnessing the demonstrable ample upsides if the teams can pull it off, and to mij thesis are the most arousing technologies which tegenstoot the aged arguments about crypto’s worth spil an exchange of value with solid real-world use cases which can be compared ter vivo terms to current centralised solutions.

Of course Ethereum is one chain that infamously forked. That wasgoed only possible because all the client devs agreed to do it, and most users chose to use the fresh software. (Some didn’t, so the flamante chain still exists spil ETC.)

Bitcoin would proceed to exist without the exchanges and wallets, they are peripheral to the core technology. Blockchains can’t be ‘forked at a quirk’ without majority overeenstemming, that’s the entire point. ETH is the evident example where the devs forked with support from the community and it led to the ETH/ETC divide.

You could ask what would toebijten if Cisco attempted to force a fresh version of TCP/IP with unwelcome switches?

The comparison isn’t fairly the same yet, but it could be ter the future and many bitcoin volgers think that’s how it will turn out.

i always found this to be a ridiculous statement. you won’t do well coining non metalic minerals/elements, and many others are subject to corrosion. gold on earth is finite and it is not man made. gold is the third most metalic electrical conductor. gold is also has the oligodynamic effect of inhibiting bacterial growth.

&gt,One of the big latest risers, Ethereum, is exactly that: Ethereum is based on a blockchain, like Bitcoin, which means it has an linked currency (Ether) that incentivizes miners to verify transactions. However, the protocol includes clever contract functionality, which means that two untrusted parties can engage te a contract without a 3rd-party enforcement entity.

all this effort to not pay lawyers to draft/read/interperet contracts due to &quot,legalese&quot, only to write contracts ter programing languages no one can read and understand. see the doa contract which wasgoed misread by the founders, by the third party reviewer, and every single person who bought ter (except the party that stole $150m via wise contract).

The author’s main point, tho’, is that perception is reality. If I accidentally offend you, your offense does not become any less vivo just because I didn’t mean to offend you, or that you should not have bot offended.

Silver also inhibits bacterial growth, which is why it’s used ter deodorants, silverware, etc.

I’ll give you an example contract that I think could be useful: an escrow service. Let’s say you want to pay someone for their work, but only if they do it. You deposit the payment into a contract with Three keys. The contract can send money only to two places. Either back to you, or to the worker. Each key has a vote where to send the money. Merienda any Two of the Three keys have voted the money is sent. You give 1 key to yourself, 1 key to the worker and 1 key to the third party. If you are pleased with the work, you and the worker both vote to send the money to the worker and the money gets sent without bothering the 3rd party. The third party only gets involved and determines how to vote ONLY if there is a disagreement, which should be infrequent. Te a world without cryptocurrencies it’s much tighter to implement this. The third party would have to be much more involved. It would hold the funds for a while and then have to transfer the money. You also have to be worried what if the 3rd party runs away with the money. This contract can be written merienda, and even formally verified. Anyone can than create an example of it for their needs and specify the addresses of the Three key holders. Basically you upload a &quot,class&quot, to the blockchain and anyone can create an example of that class for themselves.

You mean the entire history of the World which includes the creation of contracts thousands of years ago and independent/third parties (courts/lícito systems) to determine things like enforceability, legality, breaches and defenses?

I’m afraid cryptocurrencies aren’t anymore useful or capable of any of those things anymore than say. a tulip.

When people refer to &quot,clever contracts&quot, what is actually possible is a specific type of funding contract, ter which funds are held te a third party account until the funding amount hits a predetermined level at which point the funds are transferred. no different than kickstarter or gofund mij does only cryptocurrencies are not centralized with readily identifiable entities that can be held liable ter the example of a breach. However, everyone is using clever contract spil a marketing term to imply something much greater which doesn’t exist, basically they are marketing brainy contracts spil a replacement for lawyers and courts spil a sort of ai that can determine if a contract is finished or breached and volmaakt enforcement accordingly. that is the tulip, and no one is stepping ter to juist this misinformation. Even te the crowd funding example, merienda predetermined levels are reached and finds released, a wise Contract can’t enforce anything to ensure the funded party actually performs according to their promises.

But the entire point of a contract spil a program wasgoed that it wasgoed supposed to be lighter to debug, and that wasn’t true. Whereas the point of using software for space probe navigation is that it can navigate almost spil well spil a human while requiring less air.

&gt, I’ll give you an example contract that I think could be useful: an escrow service. Let’s say you want to pay someone for their work, but only if they do it. You deposit the payment into a contract with Three keys. The contract can send money only to two places. Either back to you, or to the worker. Each key has a vote where to send the money. Merienda any Two of the Three keys have voted the money is sent. You give 1 key to yourself, 1 key to the worker and 1 key to the third party. If you are sated with the work, you and the worker both vote to send the money to the worker and the money gets sent without bothering the 3rd party. The third party only gets involved and determines how to vote ONLY if there is a disagreement, which should be infrequent. Te a world without cryptocurrencies it’s much tighter to implement this. The third party would have to be much more involved. It would hold the funds for a while and then have to transfer the money. You also have to be worried what if the 3rd party runs away with the money. This contract can be written merienda, and even formally verified. Anyone can than create an example of it for their needs and specify the addresses of the Trio key holders. Basically you upload a &quot,class&quot, to the blockchain and anyone can create an example of that class for themselves.

Standardised escrow contracts and escrow services already exist, and charge fairly petite fees. There are published template contracts and anyone with the justo abilities can use such a contract themselves, and anyone without legítimo abilities can pay any reasonably qualified lawyer to use them. Turning this into code that anyone with programming abilities can use and anyone without can pay a qualified programmer to use doesn’t seem to make much difference. The problem of not having a trustworthy third party sounds difficult but it isn’t truly, at least ter countries with a functioning admitido system etc.

(The hard part of running an escrow service is determining whether the thing that wasgoed supposed to be paid for has actually happened – whether the grain wasgoed of acceptable quality, whether the house wasgoed spil described, etc. – and the blockchain doesn’t help with that part at all)

2 thoughts on “Tulips, Myths, and Cryptocurrencies, Hacker News”

  1. I do not have any clue about timing (so I am not answering your question), but I just want to add that I am optimistic when the prices of BTC stay relatively low with this ETF looming. I indeed hope the ETF is available when the BTC price is depressed – I will be dumping te some retirement $$ that is limited to only those Funds that are SEC secured and available on the Wall Street Exchanges. The lower the BTC price, the more coins (or ETF omschrijving lumps of paper) I will own.

  2. Unless they have free or almost free trades at Gemini, I can get bitcoin on Coinbase, which would, hopefully, lower their higher trade costs.

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